We've perrused the TTB for info on the subject of using malt extract for primary fermentation base, can't find a thing. Has anyone else here had any experience with the TTB and the use of malt extract? It's a bit higher cost, but the higher cost outweighs the added labor when figuring storage, shipment, processing, etc. of whole grain. And we purchase wholesale direct.
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It is a 100% malt what is problem with making single whiskey?
I'm all for it
[email protected]distilling.com
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And that's my point. As long as we use a single malt extract, no fermentible additives, I can't find there to be any reason why it can't be listed as a 'single malt' product.
BUT, rather than ask a TTB person for thoughts, I would like to see if anyone else has personal experience with the TTB and this issue. If so, what was the outcome?
And if using malt extract with other blends, such as rye or wheat, I understand it can't be a single malt, but will the TTB even allow it.
So, anyone with experience on this issue????
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I agree with Bill on this I dont see why a problem would arrise but thank you foar asking as I do was wondering about this and felt it would be a better way with time and space mgt for me. Working on the Investor issue right now. I was looking at the fact I could order extract in at 3300 lbs and stack that 3 high. This would be a large space savings and give me the ability to have a smaller space and get away with more barrel storage.
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I can't see how the TTB would care. You could ferment from carrot extracts if you wanted to for all they care. And if it's malt, it's malt on the label. But a call to the formulation people might be warranted before diving in on the labels.
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Have you asked the vendor to research? If it expands the the products marketability they should want good information rather than a customers say so or not. Likely they would have the resources to get that good information. They should be excited about the potential. I'd be interested.
BR
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Porter,
What company are you dealing with that sells the extract?
Jeff
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If you read the CFR's under Standards of Identity for whiskey, you'll find that the reg's never specify if the corn, rye, barley, or wheat is/isn't cleaned, dried, deculmed, flaked, steeped, malted, filtered, dehydrated or kilned. With two exceptions....Malt Whiskey or Malted Rye Whiskey (why they don't mention malted wheat is beyond me....maybe no historical need for it), which needs 51% of said malted grain in order for it to be labeled Malted Rye or Barley Whiskey. But the rest of the types of whiskey, imho, are fair game.
IMHO, you can use whatever of corn, rye, barley, or wheat you'd like. Plainly, the TTB doesn't care what type of corn etc. you use. If it did, they'd get more specific (perhaps you can find further definitions buried somewhere, but I've read the whole document and can't find any definitions related to this issue). Further, you will never have to submit a formula to the TTB for domestically produced unflavored whiskey, so this is all a bit moot.
A lawyer could drive a truck through the loopholes in the SOD's.
Just one man's opinion
Reply:A lawyer could drive a truck through the loopholes in the SOD's.
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Porter,
What company are you dealing with that sells the extract?
Jeff
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Porter,
What company are you dealing with that sells the extract?
Jeff
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Briess is a good domestic product, although not any cheaper than import stuff.
And the 'tote' is a good way to go, although most small shops don't have the equipment (pallet lift) to stack those things. That's why I mentioned the 600lb drum as it's easily rolled and hoisted on a small frame to a filling station. Don't even think of pumping this stuff. At least I've never seen any pump that could handle it at room temp.
Watch your shelf life, if you can't use an entire container (bucket, drum or tote) in 2 weeks it can/will start to ferment on it's own once opened. Some shops do pressurize the container with inert gas to serve out from the container, thereby keeping oxy and airborne contaminates from entering. If you don't, 2 weeks at room temp max. and that would be pushing it.
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There usually are a couple of grain suppliers at the ADI conference. I hope they should be prepared to speak on this. especially if they monitor this site! Then we all can talk to each other.
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There usually are a couple of grain suppliers at the ADI conference. I hope they should be prepared to speak on this. especially if they monitor this site! Then we all can talk to each other.
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What would suspect them to comment on? I would think we would like to see the actual malt extract makers at the conference. If this were something that took off it would be up to them to keep up with domestic production. Currently Briess is the only producer in the US. It really isn't the grain suppliers best interest for you to use extract, they'll sell less grain 
From a yield standpoint, the beer community will agree that a small business can't get the yield from grain the extract makers can. Beer folks need the ability to mix grains for styles, distillers don't, not for single malt anyway.
What is needed is to get the extract makers to produce the rye, corn, etc. malts for the distilling industry. I think their missing an entire new market for it.
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This goes completly against the grain of craft distilling, why would you want to take such a shortcut?
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We've perrused the TTB for info on the subject of using malt extract for primary fermentation base, can't find a thing. Has anyone else here had any experience with the TTB and the use of malt extract? It's a bit higher cost, but the higher cost outweighs the added labor when figuring storage, shipment, processing, etc. of whole grain. And we purchase wholesale direct.
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That's an interesting take on the subject.
I shouldn't be seen as a shortcut. It's use of a known ingredient. When you purchase a grain brand, you don't know the region the grain is grown in, so characteristics may be different and out of your control. You don't grow the tree to make the barrel. When you find an ingredient you like and want to repeat a profile with don't you depend on obtaining that same brand/type of item each time, not experimenting once you have something that works?
Same goes here. There's no shortcuts to a profile here, just obtaining a product of know characteristics.
When you say this is a shortcut to craft distilling, you are making the same statement to 75% of the brewing industry as they also use extracts as their baseline ingredient. Take a look at Briess and ask them what their sales of extract is yearly. When they deliver via tanker truck, their moving some volume.
And if you don't want to use extract, that's fine, but small timers need to maximize profits. In a 2 or 3 person shop time and labor means profits, even if it costs more up front.
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I don't know what kind of beer or whiskey you boys brew in Missouri but the brewers in Oregon would take offense to your claim that 75% of them use malt extract.
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Relating to oregon...that's the area that got me started in brewing. However, in the major metro areas of other parts of the country, the micro-brews have been getting flack from EPA on the spent grain issue. So many simply started with extract. Solved the green-folks breathing down their neck.
As for using it instead of grains, I was just asking for input on whether any large scale had tried it. It's working out well so far around here, but it does process different.
My main concern was whether the TTB had any problems with it.
NUFFIELD----Did you 'cook' the extract in a kettle first? If so, that's probably where you got the toffee flavor. You don't cook extract. It will carmalize.
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The only way that I'm aware of that malt extract is used in respectable breweries is as a plato bump for Dopplebocks or DIPA's. Most brewing equipment simply isn't designed to make high gravity beers, so the malt extract is used to get a few extra Plato in a starting gravity.
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And for those of you who think the statement that a large number of breweries are using extracts is wrong, do a google search on commercial extract brewing.
Here's just a couple of links/articles on it. Read the one from MaltProducts, has in interview with Pico Systems, which makes micro-brew systems. They fully advocate it, with very good reasons.
http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue1.4/outterson.html
http://www.maltproducts.com/news.malt.extract.html
So....stands to reason it would be worth a look into it for the micro-distillery biz.
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That's an interesting take on the subject.
I shouldn't be seen as a shortcut. It's use of a known ingredient. When you purchase a grain brand, you don't know the region the grain is grown in, so characteristics may be different and out of your control. You don't grow the tree to make the barrel. When you find an ingredient you like and want to repeat a profile with don't you depend on obtaining that same brand/type of item each time, not experimenting once you have something that works?
Same goes here. There's no shortcuts to a profile here, just obtaining a product of know characteristics.
When you say this is a shortcut to craft distilling, you are making the same statement to 75% of the brewing industry as they also use extracts as their baseline ingredient. Take a look at Briess and ask them what their sales of extract is yearly. When they deliver via tanker truck, their moving some volume.
And if you don't want to use extract, that's fine, but small timers need to maximize profits. In a 2 or 3 person shop time and labor means profits, even if it costs more up front.
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Amusing......This has gotten to be like convincing Harley owners most of their bike's parts are from Japan (they really are), too many lines in the sand being drawn.
Just brew the way you like, I started out simply wanting input on whether folks were using extract.
As for it being a shortcut, what about those using NGS to simply mix their product and slapping a label on it. Numerous 'distillerys' here in the US don't even have stills on site. They simply mix/blend NGS with ingredients and out the door, that's a true shortcut.
Don't bother responding folks.......this is an endless issue apparently.
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I suppose it depends on the individual's idea of what "craft" means, and which craft you're talking about. To use an example I've used here before, it makes as much sense as saying an "artisan baker" should have to mill their own flour.
I think it's important, especially within the craft distilling movement, to distinguish the difference between someone who simply re-bottles GNS, or adds flavorings to it and someone who uses GNS as a raw ingredient to make a fully traditional product.
There are legitimate and time-honored distilled spirits that start with pre-made products and where those products are considered a raw ingredient.
Unfortunately there are too many among us who have a limited knowledge of the breadth of this craft and the different approaches required by products outside their range of interest. And there are still others who ignore the facts even after they know them, or even twist them to their own needs, because they want to use it as a leg up for marketing.
